Can we have a Smooth button?

User support for JPatch

Can we have a Smooth button?

Postby nine » Tue Jul 12, 2005 2:19 pm

I tried to model a head in JPatch
and I like modeling in JPatch
if I could make my own shortcuts.

I think modeling in JPatch functions in some ways better than in A:M.
To insert a new point - using the Tab-key is really smart, but the Insert-key is not that good - too far away...

And hooks - and five point patches functions excellent - JPatch is more stable than A:M!

In Flash you can make drawings - hope you know that program.
Flash is very good on vector drawings - much easier to use than Illustrator I think. Flash has a smart button - a Smooth Buttton - Just select a part of your drawing and click the Smooth Button one or more times and the drawing gets smooth - and you can feel like an artist.

The Smooth button in Flash makes everyone to an artist!
because using a mouse to draw with is very bad!



My Head Model




Have a look at the head I made. It needs some smoothing. Is it possible to make a Smooth button in JPatch? To make the models smoother. Just selecting a part of the model and clicking the Smooth button some times - and your model looks so much better!!!

PS
The Zoom to Fit - button not having a shortcut is really bad....
nine
 
Posts: 133
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 2:28 pm

Postby sascha » Tue Jul 12, 2005 2:28 pm

I'm not sure what exactly the "smooth button" should do.
Keep in mind that flash uses 2D vector drawings, and things just get horribly complicated with 3D.
What I can try is to add an option to automatically set the all tangent magnitues (they can be changed using the tangent tool) to an "optimal" value. But this will require some trial and error as I've got no idea how to estimate that "optimal" value...

My only tip to get smooth surfaces is to use as few patches as possible (and to use hooks to connect the areas of low detail - i.e. few patches - to those of high detail - i.e. many patches)

Nice head model, by the way :)
sascha
Site Admin
 
Posts: 2792
Joined: Thu May 20, 2004 9:16 am
Location: Austria

Postby nine » Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:01 pm

Have you heard of calculating the average?
I believe it can be better to move points just a little so they will fit nicely into a curve....
Just calculating the average and then moving the points so they fit to some parabel - that is the way Flash does it - If you have Flash use the pencil tool with smooth to draw and using a mouse everything gets not so nice!

But then you select a part or the whole drawing and looking out for another Smooth button and you click it sometimes and your drawing looks really good - Flash has calculated the averages so the points lies on a smooth curve instead of that sh-tten curve you made with the mouse.

Have a look here - and see for yourself what Flash is doing - first the original I have copied and pasted twice - then the first Smooth with three clicks on the button and then I selected the to the right and clicked nine times.
Being able to do something of the same in JPatch and we can everyone become a bit more artistic!!!!!!!!!!!!!




The Flash Smooth Button


Last edited by nine on Wed Jul 13, 2005 8:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
nine
 
Posts: 133
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 2:28 pm

Postby sascha » Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:29 pm

Well, as I said, things are a lot more complicated in 3D unfortunately...
sascha
Site Admin
 
Posts: 2792
Joined: Thu May 20, 2004 9:16 am
Location: Austria

Postby pndragon » Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:31 pm

I'm not sure what exactly the "smooth button" should do.


What "smooth" does, in Wings3d, is subdivide the selected surfaces.
"We're so sorry, Uncle Albert,
But we haven't done a bloody thing all day."
--- Paul McCartney
pndragon
 
Posts: 591
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 1:27 am
Location: North Carolina

Postby sascha » Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:43 pm

What "smooth" does, in Wings3d, is subdivide the selected surfaces.

I see... but that's not really applicable to patch modeling.

For the 2D case, i.e. on a single spline, I'm sure that there are many methods to "smooth out" the spline, e.g. degree reduction.

In the 3D case, each control point on the mesh is part of at least two crossing splines - so what to do if one spline could be smoothed by moving the controlpoint down, the other one could be smoothe by moving the controlpoint up?
Averaging the two results comes to mind, but that might result in a model that is actually less smooth than the original one, so I'm afraid that what flash does in 2D is absolutely impossible to achieve in 3D. I can try that approach, nevertheless...

I will give the "automatically adjust tangent magnitudes" idea a try, but again, that's more or less trial and error, so it will take some time.

And right now the priorities are somewhere else, I'll keep this feature request in mind for later.
sascha
Site Admin
 
Posts: 2792
Joined: Thu May 20, 2004 9:16 am
Location: Austria

Postby nine » Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:20 pm

Averaging the two results comes to mind, but that might result in a model that is actually less smooth than the original one


How can averaging make something less smooth?
You have to understand what Flash does. It is drastic. It moves the points and you get something else more or less resembling the original. But that smooth drawing you get is so nice! And you can start over altering it a bit.

But you have got something proffessional looking - and that is what people want to have. They want the smooth things. So most people trying to model with A:M or JPatch or the other worse modelers - they get annoyed!!! I want to have something smooth and nice looking. And look what I got - it looks as a potato - not smooth at all.

Hope you have got the idea this is about Smoothing - Cheating some result. If you do not like the result you can use CTRL+Z! OK!

But people will become happy with JPatch - look how nice looking my model become - perhaps not looking as the original to 100 percent - just to 80 percent - but it is smooth - it is averaged!

I believe in that smooth button - letting everyone get models looking proffessional!

Have a try and JPatch will become a hit! - like Flash! but in 3D!
:D
nine
 
Posts: 133
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 2:28 pm

Postby pndragon » Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:27 pm

But your head model already looks smooth.

If your patches are correctly formed, there is no need to further smooth them. If you have creases, you have a problem with your patches...
"We're so sorry, Uncle Albert,
But we haven't done a bloody thing all day."
--- Paul McCartney
pndragon
 
Posts: 591
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 1:27 am
Location: North Carolina

Postby sascha » Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:47 pm

Nine, you obviously don't understand the complexities involved. Even if it is possible, it's not as simple as in 2D. Understanding what flash does won't help. I have already told you that I will keep this feature request in mind and give it more thought once I have time, but that I have more important things to do right now. I will not discuss this issue with you any longer.
Last edited by sascha on Wed Jul 13, 2005 9:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
sascha
Site Admin
 
Posts: 2792
Joined: Thu May 20, 2004 9:16 am
Location: Austria

Postby nine » Wed Jul 13, 2005 8:59 am

Sascha I do not request you to do this - I understand that you have your own TODO-list and I respect that!

I was just suggestion this Smooth button because I like it so much in Flash - it makes my drawings look proffessional - instead of I tweaking all the points to get the drawing smooth looking - I just select part of the drawing or the whole drawing - clicking a button - I get something resembling the orginal more or less - I do not get the orginal to 100 percent - but it is smooth and looks proffessional. And everybody can believe I am a good artist having spend hours getting that result.

Pndragon

Have a look on how I Smoothed the head in Flash - I did not get the same head - after smoothing with some clicks it will loose the details - getting more cartoonish - but that can be good! I can then give the cartoonish head a little more details - adding them - and I like to do the same thing in JPatch in 3D - loosing the details - but getting a more simple form - a more cartoonish head and then perhaps add in some more detail.




The Flash Smooth Button



JPatch Head Model


And I believe getting this simpliefied model - gives a more proffessional cartoon-look. It is not realism - realism is really hard to do in 3D or in 2D - if you by realism mean photorealism.

Try to sculpture a car in JPatch - I believe you will end up in some problems - having forms that not are smooth - though not having creases - but still are a bit deformed - looking like a bad repair after a car accident - I want to have that repair button - taking away all the dents just clickiing a button.

Look at my JPatch head not having creases - but having dents - I want to simplify it - taking the dents away - with a button - now I have to tweak the dents away myself - and it can take me hours to do it! getting that proffessional look.

I do not really care about the result resembles the original - but I do care about some result - some headlook - but not which one - but looking smooth - looking proffessional.

If we had that button everyone could click sometimes and get this - not tweaking for hours. I believe many tries to sculpture a car in a 3D-program but most ones - they do not get the result - a lot of dents instead - and they will tell themselves and others 3D is to complicated - too much work - and they will leave it - and it is the same with drawings in 3D - children makes drawings - but not grown ups - why? because their drawings do not look proffessional - smooth - compared to drawings made by proffessional - having sitting for hours, days, years learning to do it smooth. But the Smooth button in Flash lets everyone get that acceptable result! And that is GREAT! Letting all of us illustrate something. An image saying more than a thousand words...
:D
nine
 
Posts: 133
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 2:28 pm

Postby pndragon » Wed Jul 13, 2005 12:02 pm

Sometimes you cannot fix things with a button, in this case a "Smooth" button. This is not a box modeler. I might suggest however that you could export your models to .obj and import them into Wings3d which does have a smooth function.

Wings3d used to have a A:M exporter which you can still find. You can use this to import your models back into jPatch. It is imperfect though and they no longer support it. This process will also add a lot of splines to your model.

It is impossible to make everyone an instant professional artist if for no other reason than everyone has different standards. Plus, there just is no instant anything. To learn to do anything right takes time and effort.
"We're so sorry, Uncle Albert,
But we haven't done a bloody thing all day."
--- Paul McCartney
pndragon
 
Posts: 591
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 1:27 am
Location: North Carolina

Postby kl » Wed Jul 13, 2005 3:36 pm

Nine,

You don't need a smooth button.

My experience:
The less splines you use, the smoother pathces you get. You can smooth your patches by converting a point into a hook. Thus, reducing splines.

(sasch, that's why we need "hook/point" toggle button)
kl
 
Posts: 46
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2005 12:07 am

Postby nine » Wed Jul 13, 2005 4:04 pm

pndragon and kl
Have yout ever tried the Smooth Button in Flash?
I think it is superb as you probably understand.
What do you think?

For sure it has limits but still really useful - it will not preserve a detailed drawing instead making it to a cartoon drawing - an illustration - but that is needed too!

Why not have a Smooth Button in 3D - it is just a little more complicated algoritm, or?
Just smoothing, not reducing the number of splines - you can get some dents back if you need them, tweaking a bit - having reduced the number of splines you do not have that opportunity.

In Flash there is also Optimize ... reducing the number of splines - that is also possible in 3D - but perhaps a bit more complicated to achieve.

Using hooks to reduce the number of splines is possible - the five point patch too - but perhaps there are problems rendering hooks and 5-point patches?

The hook/toogle button is also a great idea - with the new four spline/point patch approach you have to do a little modeling yourself though - but sure it is a great idea - lacking in A:M

In A:M you can click a spline and a point is inserted - that is really great - making modeling so muh easier and faster but perhaps hard to implement?

:)
nine
 
Posts: 133
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 2:28 pm

Postby pndragon » Wed Jul 13, 2005 4:57 pm

There is a huge difference in moving splines in 3d and moving lines in 2d.

I am willing to let you show me... by you programming the Smooth button that you want. Not Sascha, he's busy.

The code is available to you.

I'm through with this subject.
"We're so sorry, Uncle Albert,
But we haven't done a bloody thing all day."
--- Paul McCartney
pndragon
 
Posts: 591
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 1:27 am
Location: North Carolina

Postby dcuny » Wed Jul 13, 2005 6:34 pm

nine, please take a moment to read people's replies before asking the same question. For example, you asked:
nine wrote:Why not have a Smooth Button in 3D - it is just a little more complicated algoritm, or?
when Sascha had already given the answer:
Sascha wrote:Nine, you obviously don't understand the complexities involved. Even if it is possible, it's not as simple as in 2D.
No, it's not "just a little" more complicated - it may be almost impossible.

You also wrote:
I was just suggestion this Smooth button because I like it so much in Flash...
Have a look on how I Smoothed the head in Flash...
But the Smooth button in Flash lets everyone get that acceptable result!
Have yout ever tried the Smooth Button in Flash?
Even though Sascha had already written:
Sascha wrote:Understanding what flash does won't help.

By ignoring people's answers, the only thing you're doing is making sure that people will ignore questions you'll ask in the future.
dcuny
 
Posts: 2902
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 6:07 am

Next

Return to Support / Help

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron