Some moderations to the JPatch GUI wanted

User support for JPatch

Some moderations to the JPatch GUI wanted

Postby nine » Sat Jul 09, 2005 7:53 pm

Just some small moderations wanted to the GUI - Graphical User Interface.

I want to have the tooltips with black text against yellow/orange background. For sure - blue is really nice - but I think it is better with yellow/orange and you can more easiely read the tooltips.

And I want to have the Side Bar to the Left - I think it is more natural - usually menus are to the left - and it will be less disturbing then modeling.

And I really hope we will get shortcuts for all the commands. Now there are no shortcuts for eg. Detach, Five Point Patch, Show Hide Tangents, Zoom to fit... That is really a pity...

And there are no shortcuts for show > points, curves, patches, rotoscope and Bezier making it really hard to model fast.

And I do not want to use the Num keys - having no Num keys...
I want to make my own shorcuts for View > Front, Rear, Top, Bottom, Birds Eye.

And I want to have the possibility to make my own shortcuts for all the commands.

In Animation Master you do not Rotate a View - You are Turning a View
and you use the shortcut T to Turn a view. But you are Rotating a selection using the R shortcut. And that will solve a lot of problems -
then you do not have to use the SHIFT-key to SHIFT+R rotate a view.
You have T to Turn the view and R to rotatate a selection.
And M to Move a view - and the ESC-key to get the Default tool to select and move.
And Z is used for Zooming a view.
CTRL+1, CTRL+2, CTRL+3 are used for moving in just the direction of X, Y or Z-axis.. or perhaps it is SHIFT+1, SHIFT+2, SHIFT+3...
I want to have Z for Zooming I believe most programs have that shortcut.. Sure I do not like standards - but sometimes they are good...


Zoom previous I am also looking for and Zoom all without having to deselect something to be able to use Zoom to fit to Zoom All.

Well some suggestions - I hope - it will be possible to implement this.. because I believe everything making life easier then modeling is really good.

Inverse Selection - I have not seen in JPatch - that is really good then Hiding things and naming selections.
And in Animation Master you can choose one point and on a spline and then choose Select Spline... That is really good... if you have a lot of splines.
And if you select a point in a group(a namned selection) you can choose Select group from the menu and get all the group selected... That is also really good.

Perhaps we have to do a small donation to Sascha so he can get Animation Master - studying it a bit - what do you say Sascha - do you want to have a donation?
:D
nine
 
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Postby pndragon » Sat Jul 09, 2005 8:34 pm

In Animation Master you do not Rotate a View - You are Turning a View
and you use the shortcut T to Turn a view. But you are Rotating a selection using the R shortcut. And that will solve a lot of problems -
then you do not have to use the SHIFT-key to SHIFT+R rotate a view.
You have T to Turn the view and R to rotatate a selection.
And M to Move a view - and the ESC-key to get the Default tool to select and move.
And Z is used for Zooming a view.
CTRL+1, CTRL+2, CTRL+3 are used for moving in just the direction of X, Y or Z-axis.. or perhaps it is SHIFT+1, SHIFT+2, SHIFT+3...
I want to have Z for Zooming I believe most programs have that shortcut.. Sure I do not like standards - but sometimes they are good...


It is probably not my place to say anything (especially since I'd never even heard of Animation: Master until after I discovered JPatch) but I can't resist...

In a number of places in this forum, Sascha has stated that it was never his intention to create an A:M clone. Compatibility, on the other hand, has always been a goal. He has always been on the look out for users from the A:M community to tell us where we stand.

It seems sometimes that you are trying to turn JPatch into a copy of A:M because that is what you are used to.

If I misunderstand, nine, please forgive me and explain to me the difference.

Sascha, if I have stated your case incorrectly, I humbly crave your forgiveness also.

To everyone else, I am sorry. I don't rant often and I'll try not to let it happen again. It makes me tired.
"We're so sorry, Uncle Albert,
But we haven't done a bloody thing all day."
--- Paul McCartney
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Postby nine » Sun Jul 10, 2005 10:09 am

No, I do not want JPatch to be a clone of A:M - I want it to be better!!!
:D
But A:M has been on the market for some years and JPatch is relatively young. A:M has a staff working on it and a lot of users. So I believe the GUI - Graphical User Interace and the Shortcuts has been debated a lot of the A:M folks - perhaps they have found some good things.

Zooming, Rotating and Moving views are things you are doing nearly all the time modeling - so you have to be able to do it - as easy as possible.

To me and I believe also to everyone else using the shortcuts: Z to Zoom, T to Turn and M to Move a view as in A:M is so much better than the JPatch solution using SHIFT+Z to Zoom, SHIFT+R to Rotate and SHIFT+M to Move a view.

Having to use SHIFT is bad - because everything making modeling slower is bad...

Why do you have to use SHIFT in JPatch? I believe it is because R is used for Rotatate a Selection - and then is colliding with Rotating a view, but if you instead use the word Turn to rotatate a view - then it is natural to use the shortcut T to do it..

And Z is used in nearly all programs to Zoom - that is a standard - in JPatch it is used to align movement with the Z-axis. And then Zoom has to use that bad SHIFT-key.

I think it is better to use Z as a shortcut for Zoom and inventing some other shortcut for moving points in the Z-direction.

And of course if we can get the chance to select OUR OWN shortcut for EVERY COMMAND in JPatch - JPatch will not be a clone of A:M - JPatch will be leading the way!

Hope we can have a nice discussion on this topic - I can understand that Sascha has a lot on his TODO-list - but this was only my suggestions to make the life modeling a little easier. And perhaps my suggestions are easy to implement if Sascha finds them good. I will wait and see. But I believe Sascha is glad to hear from the users - to get suggestions from them - I do not believe we have to have the same opinion on every question - nice discussions - listening to each other - will make all our lives a little easier to live.
:D
And another thing I do not like in the JPatch implementation is that Zoom, Rotatate and Move stays - after having Zoomed, Turned or Moved a view in Animation Master the command is terminated and you will get the Default tool - to start selecting some points and moving the points. To me this is really much better. In JPatch you have to use the ESC-key or choose some other command to terminate the Zoom-, Rotatate- and Move-commands. That is to me really irritating. Mostly you Zoom, Rotate and Move once and then doing something - selecting and moving some points. In Animation Master if you want to Zoom, Turn or Move the view one more time - just press the Z, T or M-key. And as I told before - there are some Zoom-alternatives lacking in JPatch.

What do you think Sascha and pdragon - what do you think about my ideas :idea: - and what do everyone else think? Perhaps it is not so difficult to give us - the JPatch users - the possibility to choose our own shortcuts - to me it would really be a relief!
nine
 
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Postby pndragon » Sun Jul 10, 2005 3:40 pm

I stand corrected...
"We're so sorry, Uncle Albert,
But we haven't done a bloody thing all day."
--- Paul McCartney
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Postby sascha » Sun Jul 10, 2005 8:10 pm

Nine,

some of the features you requested are already implemented, this is also true for your latest feature request:

I want to have the tooltips with black text against yellow/orange background.
As long as I use swing I'll use the defaults. Note that you can switch to the Windows or Linux(GTK) GUI (which I do not recommend at this time) and these look&feels should support customized themes.
I am also looking for and Zoom all without having to deselect something to be able to use Zoom to fit to Zoom All.
To "deselect all" all you have to do is to click anywhere... After you "zoomed to fit" you can even use undo to restore the old selection...
Inverse Selection - I have not seen in JPatch
Popup menu->selection->invert selection...
And another thing I do not like in the JPatch implementation is that Zoom, Rotatate and Move stays - after having Zoomed, Turned or Moved a view in Animation Master the command is terminated and you will get the Default tool
Thats actually one thing I don't like on A:M. But it should be easy to add a switch in the preferences menu to toggle that behavior.

Most of the other features you suggested make sense and in most cases I've already commited to implement them. Please understand that development takes time, and currently I'm working on some important changes "below the surface" that will make adding new features easier in the future. Next on the list are bones and a better Animator. So it will take some time until all the features you've suggested are implemented.
Nevertheless I appreciate your feedback and if you have new ideas or new feature requests, don't hesitate to post them!
But I do have a real life, a family (including a one year old daughter) and a job, so the spare time I can spend on JPatch is quite limited :)


It also seems that you've found a bug (visible in your wink tutorial: JPatch doesn't delete the patch if you detach the splines in one corner. I'll have to fix that).
About bugs and feature requests in general: I plan to create a (publicly readable) database for bugs and feature requests. Once it is done I'll try to put all feautre requests from this forum that have not yet been implemented into this database. I'll let you know when it is ready, so you can check if all your feature-requests are there or if I forgot one.

Pndragon,

you're right, it was and is not my intention to create an A:M clone. Actually I didn't even know about A:M when I started to write JPatch. But there are few patch modelers out there, and I think A:M is the most popular one, so it does make sense to keep things like keyboard shortcuts as compatible as possible. I'm no A:M user, so I depend on other A:M users and their feedback. As far as the patch modeler is concerned, A:M seems to be mature and well renowned, so "copying" parts of its look and feel might be a good idea. As far as animation is concerned, I have my own ideas that are (AFAIK) incompatible with A:M's animation system, so JPatch and A:M will diverge there. I'd also like to add support for polygon/SDS based models. A funny thing was that Martin Hash himself once sent me an email, asking me to correct the homepage because I wrote that Hash-Patches were Bezier-Patches, which wasn't correct. Well, by that time I just released JPatch 0.2. JPatch 0.4 actually uses Hash-Patches, so it's closer to A:M than ever :?
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Postby dcuny » Sun Jul 10, 2005 9:17 pm

The topic of look and feel came up on the Art of Illusion board the other day. The basic complaint was that the GTK "native" theme support was lacking, and the default "Ocean/Metal" theme had issues as well.

Personally, I use the Metal theme - it's consistant, and seems to display the best. I stopped using the GTK theme under Linux with JPatch for a couple of reasons. The displayed values for the sliders are being clipped in the Materials window, and (more problematically) the menu was displaying white text against a white background. The menu color issue seems to have been corrected in the latest Java release.

Anyhow, someone suggested using JGoodies to replace the default Metal theme. The demo looks nice, but I can't tell if it wraps the sliders or not. :?
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Postby nine » Sun Jul 10, 2005 10:28 pm

I can understand that your time to develop JPatch is limited and you have a lot of things on your TODO-list,
but giving us the opportunity to decide the shortcuts ourselves for all the commands or the commands now having shortcuts
will it take long time? Perhaps it is an "easy" job? In A:M there is a list you can reach from the menu - and you can insert your own shortcuts into that list - by pressing the key you want for that shortcut.

Perhaps you already have such a list - a shortcut list - inside the programcode of JPatch - the thing is to do it reachable for all of us - perhaps not taking so long time - now I am going "mad" having to use SHIT+Z, SHIFT+M, SHIFT+R instead of Z, M and T for Turn the view.
Now Z is used for constraining movements to the Z-axis - that is "crazy".
Better use 1,2,3 for constraining to the X,Y and Z-axis and SHIFT+1, SHIFT+2... for deciding how many views you want.


Yes, I read that you are going to make a database for all the suggestions - Thanks a lot! But I cannot stop... why do you have to press F5 or click the Compute Patches button - it is much better the program computes the patches automatically - so you can know if you have made a valid patch or not.

Still hoping for that shortcut list coming soon...
:roll:
And hopefully with all commands... now Invert Selection do not have any shortcut!!! and show/hide patches having no shortcut!!!
Everything not having shortcuts makes modeling takes more time having to look for buttons and having to right click in the modeling window looking in some menu to get the command.. No!!! A shortcut list for all the commands and we can decide ourselves!!!
:!:
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