Is JPatch missing the goal? What is the goal?

General discussion about JPatch

Is JPatch missing the goal? What is the goal?

Postby nine » Fri Jan 27, 2006 8:42 pm

Is JPatch missing the goal? What is the goal?
To me the goal is to be able to tell a story - with characters being able to speak - having lipsync - and being able to tell stories easy with many characters - at least two characters - having some dialogue.

3D - movie making is too time consuming in Animation Master having got a time line - and you have to build most of the things/characters yourself - no library with some hundred characters and there are no clothes for different characters. I believe Animation Master has got the wrong way - it is an old concept - people have been content with making pictures - but that is movies that will attract people to 3D. Disney without being able to tell a story - not having lipsynced characters - no one cares...

JPatch have two movies to show.
Animation Master have some more movies
http://amfilms.hash.com/
but most of them are simple short ones with simple characters - mostly one character - a dumb one.

MACHIMA has nearly got the things I believe in to be able to tell a story :
http://www.machinima.com/films.php
http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0, ... _tophead_1


http://www.machinima.com/article.php?article=441
The Movies -
http://www.activision.com/ - not functioning - perhaps somewhere else
http://www.themoviesgame.com/
we are told:

Yes, there is lip-sync capabilities. They were not able to demo it to us precisely, but it is a part of the game. All actor’s mouths move, and their physical emotes / gestures are controlled by a “mood” slider.

Yes, you can import custom content. To a degree. And it doesn’t require you to have a MFA in 3D to do it.

The “reel” story comes together in the Editing Room.

Ultimately you can put together your entire story in the built-in editing suite, but if you want some advanced features like cross-fading music, changing dialog levels and direction, and adding crazy special effects, you’ll probably want to export your rough cut into a more advanced, external editing program.

Costumes - I think one of Activision staff said there were like 1200 costumes.

I believe JPatch have to integrate the story telling - lip sync - libraries with characters and movements just to attach to the characters.

MACHIMA movies have also much better camera work compared to the movies made in Animation Master...

I believe JPatch has to learn from MACHIMA storytelling.
:roll:
Santa Says - just now nothing in MACHIMA - but I believe he will soon be telling something... next X-mas?
just now just dancing and so much more doings - have a look!
This is a beginning of story telling for the 3D-amateurs - the lovers of 3D
soon becoming proffessional... telling stories that others love to see and listen to...
http://www.machinima.com/films.php?id=1819
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Postby sascha » Fri Jan 27, 2006 9:46 pm

Well, erm, no matter how you think about Disney, you can't seriously compare a Disney movie with an "animation" made with a realtime game-engine!

Game engines have become quite sophisticated lately, and by playing back libraries of motion-captured actions they can produce some cool looking animations (considered that it's realtime). But again, you can't compare that with what's possible with A:M or, for that matter, any character animation tool.

With time there will be a library of freely useable JPatch models, and I'm working on BVH (motioncapture) file-support too, so you will be able to take any recorded actions and apply them to a JPatch character (that's whate those game engines do). You'll most likely be dependent on available BVH files - unlike the game studios most home-users don't have a motion-capture stage at hand.

But an experienced animator can do a lot more that that! it's hard work to bring an animated character to live, and software can try to support you in this task, but can't do the work for you.
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Postby dcuny » Fri Jan 27, 2006 10:01 pm

It seems we've had this conversation before. :D

I think you're looking for something more like 3D Movie Maker. You can find a free demo here. I'm sort of suprised that no one's written a free version of this program, it's pretty fun.
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Postby Guest » Sun Jan 29, 2006 1:51 am

Well this conversation I believe will not stop! :lol:
The thing is you can have a really simple character(s) and letting it(them) speak and you have got a monologue(dialogue)

Here I found the 3D Movie Maker - http://www.3dmmstudio.co.uk/utilities.php - the link http://www.mca.k12.nf.ca/moviemaker.html submitted to download it - does not work. But no lipsync in it as far as I can understand. And it is about 300 Mb and installed - how much? Believe I will not install it...

Really nice if you can have motioncapture support in JPatch!

Animation Master has automated lip sync - hope JPatch will have it too!
with some phoneme set... That is the important thing - getting the lipsync!!!
Because having a character saying just a sentence it is too much work to lip sync it yourself.

You can have a look here - http://media.putfile.com/busama - on lipsync made with Animation Master. The head is not modelled - just an image with some splines on the back - you can have a look on the tutorial here:
http://www.hash.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=15248

The thing is that is really hard to model a caricature - better use a photo!

To make JPatch popular: 1. Automated Lip Sync
and you can get the kids and some elders to use it!
The characters are coming to live with a dialogue...
So two characters premade for automated Lip Sync
and perhaps someones will start to use it.
I believe it can be nice for the kids having to characters saying something to each other... but it have to be simple to do it... just drop the soundfiles on the characters and move the sounds along the timeline.

Most things in 3D you do not have to model - better using images and fewer bytes to download - of course you have to have a 3D scene for the web!

I hope you have seen this 3D - application - but no lipsync!!!!! SHIT!
http://www.mindavenue.com/

If instead lipsynced and Java for the web - how nice!!!

Here are som tutorials - perhaps getting some inspiration for JPatch development:
http://www.hash.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=15989

To me it is something wrong with Animation Master - you cannot movies with it! Too complicated - too time consuming - and no standards so no libraries with dresses - standard things - you got to have a standard - most peple are between 1 meter and 2 meters... this MACHIMA has understood - not Animation Master - hope JPatch will understand it... making something easy too use and I believe there will be so many more willing to contribute... there is a need to say something... about our world situation!!!
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Postby Guest » Sun Jan 29, 2006 2:15 am

PAPAGAYO - dcuny - said something about it - sometime ago - some progress? or implemented already?

Have a look at this:
http://lostmarble.com/moho/gallery/wimp ... 320&wH=260

I have never seen something like this done with Animation Master - just a simple character - many characters - lipsynced a bit - and music - and you have got a movie - telling a story!!!

You know - rigging a character is hard work - Animation Master cannot do it...
so really complicated if you try to do something realistic....

I do not believe in realism! You can always tell it is 3D - seeing it is not reality... so why try?

If you can make 3D with lipsynced simple characters in a simple way - you can have your audience - you can get the artists....
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Postby Guest » Sun Jan 29, 2006 2:36 am

Here is an example with two lipsynced simple characters:
http://www.hash.com/forums/index.php?ac ... st&id=8345

And here some more examples:
http://www.hash.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=16426

Well - getting the kids - beginning to tell their stories in this way - I believe can be something....


Have they succeeded in making cloth?
Here is the Cloth Forum:
http://www.hash.com/forums/index.php?showforum=53

This is what they can master:
http://www.hash.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=18467

I do not believe that is the way - better trying to make something easy being able to tell a story!!! You do not have to have cloth and all the stuff they are trying to implement. They have got it wrong. Story telling is the way. MACHIMA can do it! - it is lipsync you cannot do in MACHIMA in a good manner...


I wonder what goal do you have?
Implementing a new Animation Master in Java?
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Postby squirrelhavoc » Sun Jan 29, 2006 5:07 am

Anonymous wrote:I wonder what goal do you have?
Implementing a new Animation Master in Java?


Sascha has mentioned many times that JPatch is not going to be, nor ever was supposed to be, a A:M clone. It's it's own tool, for it's own purposes
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We live as we think, very very slowly....
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Postby pndragon » Sun Jan 29, 2006 5:27 am

If you are so enamoured with A:M... Why don't you just use that software? The same question applies to all of the other programs that you have mentioned.
Jpatch is its own beast with its own positives and (sorry to say) negatives. You take it for what it is and make what you can with it.

--- Jim
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Postby sascha » Sun Jan 29, 2006 9:17 am

Nine, please log in before posting.

David Cuny wrote an excellent lip-syncing tool called Yolo - its user interface is very similar to Lost Marble's Papagayo (which recently has been released under an open source license).
Yolo is written in Java and will eventually be integrated into JPatch.

It's a great aid, but it doesn't automate lip-syncing. That would require speech recognition, and I doubt that the results would be satisfactory.
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Postby dcuny » Sun Jan 29, 2006 9:19 am

Not having the kind of program you describe isn't stopping anyone from telling compelling stories. There are lots of different ways to tell a story - blogs, comics, written word, plays... I'd go so far as to argue that dressing them up in 3D flash and dazzle is probably the last thing you'd want to do.

Pixar understood that the key was the story, not the technology. Anyone who fails to learn that lesson is doomed to create Disney movies.
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Postby sascha » Sun Jan 29, 2006 10:10 am

Anyone who fails to learn that lesson is doomed to create Disney movies.


Hey, why's everybody bashing Disney here? :)

Not that I am a big Disney fan - but saying that they can't tell stories is a bit undue, isn't it?
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Postby nine » Sun Jan 29, 2006 1:55 pm

It is NOT about Disney or not.
It is about being able to TELL A STORY with lipsynced 3D characters...

I hope it will be your goal - I believe it is everyones goal...
Animation Master has not understood this - compare to MACHIMA.
MACHIMA is bad in many respects but they have succeeded in getting youths to animate. Animation Master it is so much technical talking - it is not for the artists - they have got so few artists working with the program - it is too complicated and too time consuming.

Disney without lipsync and sound - it is just shit - it is Animation Master - so few lipsynced movies with sound done with Animation Master.

And I really hope JPatch will try to have some hours of meditation on the subject - which way to go - what is the goal - I believe it is story telling - animation is about different moods - feelings - and talk have so really much to say - saying things with a 3D pantomime is not the right way to go.

Disney understood some years ago - we have to be able to do - not Disney - but our own animations - telling our own stories.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snow_White ... 37_film%29
Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs is the first animated feature in the Disney animated features canon. It was produced by Walt Disney Productions, premiered on December 21, 1937, and was originally released to theatres by RKO Radio Pictures on February 8, 1938. Based upon the fairy tale Snow White by the Brothers Grimm, the film's plot has a jealous queen attempt to have her stepdaughter murdered, but the girl escapes and is given shelter by seven dwarfs who live deep in a forest. Snow White was the first major animated feature made in the United States, the most successful motion picture released in 1938, and, adjusted for inflation, is the tenth highest-grossing film of all time.

About Lip Sync:
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Lip-sync
Lip synchronization is the synchronization of audio signals (sometimes with corresponding video signals) so that there is no noticeable lack of simultaneity between them. The term lip sync is an abbreviation of lip synchronization, and describes two similar forms of vocal pantomime.

Have a look at the movies at Animation Masters Hall of Fame.
Still it is Alien Song - why have they not come up with something new lipsynced?
http://amfilms.hash.com/index.php?act=S ... pe=entries

Look at their Stories and they are showing motion capture - just stupid!

Look at their lipsync contest -. not much!
http://www.hash.com/animationcontest/Q0 ... inners.asp

This one I like Nancy Gormezano - Falling in Love Again -
http://amfilms.hash.com/search/Entry.php?entry=1068

Two characters - one lipsynced - music - a story - but Nancy she is a hard working artist - it takes years to do something like this - and so short - MACHIMA has done it fast - with youth - not so experienced.

LIP-SYNC in JPATCH and we can tell stories with simple characters - we have to laugh a bit - the world is crazy:
http://www.911blogger.com/2006/01/impen ... r-911.html
http://media.putfile.com/busama

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:
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Postby nine » Sun Jan 29, 2006 2:41 pm

PAPAGAYO is it implemented? I did not get any answer.
I really hope on some good implementation.
Animation Master has a word/phoneme list and some automatic placing of the synced lips. It is a good beginning. It is PAPAGAYO.

Nancy Gormezano - Falling in Love Again - it is so simple lip sync:
http://amfilms.hash.com/search/Entry.php?entry=1068

But it is about feelings - story telling.
I believe you can use simplier characters:
http://www.hash.com/forums/index.php?ac ... st&id=8345

And here some more examples:
http://www.hash.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=16426

Try to implement easy lipsync and you can get a lot of users - hopefully - and your idea can spread - getting more ones involved. Try to make two characters talking with each other - they do not have to move with some background - just an image or two - using images in the background to set the scenary that is the easy way - not modeling everything - to time consuming...

AM has a new Forum called Teaching Resources to get teachers involved - but they have not succeded:
http://www.hash.com/forums/index.php?showforum=54

AM has no demo and it is not free - and it is too complicated - they cannot make a dialogue with simple characters easy... The dialogue - voices - and the music is 50 percent of animation... belive me!

Here tutorials for the teachers and schoolkids:
http://www.hash.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=15989
BASIC
Teachers A:M Tutorial 1, Learn A:M basics in half an hour
Four Basic Lessons to learn and teach A:M, to tell stories on the WWW with lipsynch
How to make Guides for all subjects, ContinuationCourse to Four Basic Lessons
Making a Walk Cycle Walk, Exercise 5 NEW!

Here about 200 downloads:
http://www.hash.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=15027

I believe kids - schools all over the world need JPatch to say something - tell a story. If I were you I would concentrate on lip sync - and making a movie - having something nice to show! You do not have to have all those complicated bones - rigs - to say something - just the mouth! and you can grab an audience and letting the kids grabbing their audience...

We cannot have those guys - http://media.putfile.com/busama - grabbing the audience - they are destroying our planet!!!
http://www.911blogger.com/2006/01/impen ... r-911.html
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Postby Guest » Sun Jan 29, 2006 2:57 pm

Beak sync is the simpliest :
http://www.hash.com/forums/index.php?ac ... st&id=5409
http://www.hash.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=14804

But just saying one sentence? Most kids want to say several sentences - and you have to have some word/phoneme list to make it easier to sync the beak.
Hope you will turn up with some movie with a synced beak - having some nice to say... and some implementation to sync the beak really easy... I want to have this one speaking and some easy animation. And why not two of them? Having a dialogue... about those stupids - the humans - and their nuclear threats?!.,

Image
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Postby animohn » Sun Jan 29, 2006 3:06 pm

I am going to have to defend Disney here. The reason that the animated film industry is even around is because of what Disney did and that was done through quality in art and story. Pixar is what it is because the animators and storytellers there are of the Disney tradition they just used a new technology to accomplish the same thing. Stepping away from 3d, Miyazaki is also of the Disney tradition. It’s hard to imagine so many getting it so right, following the path of those who supposedly got it so wrong.

As for Jpatch going in the wrong direction, my opinion is it’s absolutely on the right track. I just wish it were on one of those Japanese bullet train tracks so it would get here faster because I can’t wait to see what it will become. :D
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